May 25, 2003

Comments now powered by HaloScan. Click here to read this entry's comments (if any), or to post one of your own.

Old Comments (92)

1. Kate S. on 02 Jun 2003

   Yikes! That guy is almost as scary as Bush, Junior. In fact, I hope I'm not offending anyone, but to me, de Ruiter kind of sounds like another Jim Jones.....Hope your friends aren't giving him all their money, too. That would kind of clinch it, wouldn't it?
   I wonder how much of that higher-ordained need for wordly goods the ex will get in the divorce settlement? And will she get a piece of all future shearings or will it be a one-time buy-out deal?
   God, I'm cynical.

2. pHIL STRETCH on 17 Oct 2003

   you should at least check the guy out for yourself or there is no room for comment only conjecture

3. Paul Atreides on 19 Jan 2004

   Been there. Went and watched de Ruiter glare into space for 2 full hours while woman after woman supplicated herself "at his feet", teary-eyed, BEGGING for an answer, or some guidance for their questions. NOT ONE WORD IN 2 FULL HOURS. He failed utterly to speak even one word of reflection for these needy people coming to this self ADVERTISED guru of "Truth". Not even an acknowledgement of the importance of their question - mere silence. Some members point out that, although John doesn't always speak, there is always "ocular communication", which some members say speaks much more than words. One cannot help but think, however, that if he knows an answer well enough to "transmit" it with his eyes thru silence, that he should be able to vocalize it for the benefit of these bitterly crying desperately hurt women, because they certainly weren't "getting it", despite their devotion to homework and paying the guru. It was cold and miserable to witness. His ego and enjoyment of denying even the barest laid souls was so incredibly evident, despite the "not-quite-pro" facial expression discipline he has so obviously spent long hours developing, no doubt due to it's powerful ambiguity/mystery building properties.

   Snake oil? Well, it's pretty hard not to get the impression that this guy is only into it for the chicks, cash, and adoration - especially when reading testimony from both his own comments about his INFIDELITY to his wife (let's not forget that this fellow took a vow to maintain a MONOGAMOUS relationship, and betrayed that contract, and has to this date been insolvent regarding that contract, so one can assume his "word" and integrity are at the very least, questionable.) and from the anecdotes of many people both in and out of the oasis organization, from both camps pro or con.

   My personal observation is this: the guy teaches a philosophy that essentially assumes that one doesn't really have a responsibility to regard with respect the emotions of others when acting in ways that would affect their lives and emotions. That coldness is self absorbtion and is, no doubt, the result of de Ruiter's own hurts and insecurities suffered as a result of organized religion forcing him to relinquish his self to the christian whole of his youth. Now, he seeks to "create his own self conceived Truth" from a platform that is so individualist that it refuses to accept how much damage it inflicts on others like his wife Joyce. The followers of John, are more than happy to put into practice this all-accepting philosophy because it means that they don't have to actually take responsibility or think about the consequences or morality of their actions. Since s*&t flows downhill, John worships himself and the truth, his followers worship John, and themselves (which is probably just fine by John), and the rest just have to grin and bear it I guess. But I can't help wondering: John says that the "Truth" told him to take more wives, betraying that trust, and expects Joyce his wife to accept it, and even embrace it. Hmmmm... My "Truth" is that I needs cash for rent, so maybe I should join de Ruiter's organization, start embezzling funds - literally stealing from John because my "Truth told me to", and see how well he accepts THAT. Someday Joyce may take self defence classes and have her "Truth" tell her to tap-dance on his head whilst he travels abroad in countries with undeveloped extradition laws... I wonder how well his cranium would accept THAT!!! Now some may squeal and get all angry at my comparisons here, even call them threatening. But they would be failing to see my point. Adultery is no less a kick in the head than a real kick in the head - regardless of how John de Ruiter wishes to dress it up in bullshit.

4. Maneela on 08 Jan 2005

   The above postings are so misleading and so far away from facts and reality. Most of the information has been distorted and misrepresented.

   I have known John for over seven years and I have not yet met anyone as clean, trustworthy and good as him. No matter what anyone says or believes or would like others to believe, John de Ruiter lives for goodness and not for his personal benefits. He is in relationship with two very beautiful, very good, and intelligent woman, who know exactly what they are doing. Anyone who spends time around them and can see witnesses the positive change in them. They are becoming more lovely and amazing as time passes. They are such sweet beings, that the ones who are touched by them are grateful and uplifted and inspired to be more real and to change and live in a better way. Who of the people who have posted the above comments have witnessed their relationships? Who can judge John and how he is being in it? John is one of maybe three to five people that I have met, who is a real and a good husband rather than a “mostly seeking his advantage” or worse abusive husband. John lives what he knows, not social conventions, norms or what others expect of him. John does not condone polygamy for anyone who cannot even be fully in one relationship, which makes only sense. Who of us is fully with and only good towards our spouse? Joyce chose not to stay with John. That was her choice and it is understandable. Many have felt for her. Who can tell what would have been if she had stayed with John? She did not get what she wanted anymore, but did John? The difference is that John does not live for what he wants but for what he knows to be true.

   It is not only women who are seeking John's support but an equal amount of men. In fact, there are people of all ages and many nationalities attending meetings with him.

   John teaches that as we move on we become even responsible for our thinking and our dreams at night. We are responsible for everything that it in our care, which includes all of our personal existence but for most of us way more than that. There are hierarchies for everything. Someone’s feelings have value if they are coming from a true place. If they are disappointed egoistic wants, they have no value. There are also things, that have more value than feelings.
   John's teachings are clear and simple and only good. Most of it is easy to understand.

   Those who are spending time with John are benefiting from his presence and his way of being and how he supports people. Those who are open to him receive endless amounts of help, love and kindness to a degree that makes my heart cry at times. It is goodness that flows through him whether he communicates in words or in silence. There are many ways of communication and we all have experienced that. Nobody that I have known in all these years has reported that they are upset or that they have cried because they are not “getting it”. There are many reasons why people cry ranging from sadness to relieve, to rapture and being deeply touched.

   Meeting John is not about worshipping of any kind. In fact if anyone worships John as a person John does not give any energy to that at all. On the contrary, John does not encourage worship of himself or our own personalities. He encourages to be what we know and to live how we know to live.

   He is the one man I have met who has never been flirtatious or manipulative in any way. If a woman or a man throws themselves at John, John will be only real and he won’t let them stay there. He will help them lovingly until they are able to walk on their own feet according to what they know to be true. John never encourages anyone to believe what he or anyone says. He only encourages to believe only what we know to be true.

   In the most kind way John gives love and real support to people without making it about getting something in return for it. He is so clean.

   Posting comments on someone you might have met for only two hours or not at all or whom you simply don't understand can create a lot of distortion and mislead others. You may wish to think about that and be more careful about your public communication in future. Words like the ones on the postings above may not seem to have much importance to some people, but they may weigh very heavy, even if it not obvious right away. Such communication may contribute to the burden of the world rather than lifting it. It is good to take responsibility for what we say and write and communicate to others especially, if we communicate somewhere as public as the Internet. It is also good to inform ourselves, to open our minds and listen first before we go out to criticize with sharpness. In fact, it is never good to be sarcastic and mean. I think we all know that.

   If we don’t understand something, we don’t need to cover the perceived lack by creating our own story about it and then judging someone based on our own made up facts. To present all of that as truth does not make our self created story true. It is never true to steal either. We all know that. Truth is simply what is true, which might be simpler than you think it is. Truth is not a mystery. The basics are very simple.

   Anyone who would like to find out what is true about John for themselves can start here www.johnderuiter.com, open their hearts and minds and really listen. Something inside of them may hear and then over time begin to really see and really understand.

   To post something that comes from what we really understand based on true and good judgment will have true value and will contribute positively to the world. Before then – do we have a right to make statements? What do such statements achieve? If we are honest with ourselves and we realize something that we had not seen previously we can change according to your realization. Then we will have an opportunity to correct and do it again - differently.

   I look forward to more postings. Postings based on real facts, understanding and open minded good judgement.

   
   Disclaimer: This posting represents my personal understanding and experience with John and has not been influenced or condoned by John de Ruiter or Oasis.
   

5. Elaine of Kalilily on 08 Jan 2005

   Reality is what we make of it. Personally, I don't like cults of any kind, including organized religions. Self-appointed spiritual gurus like de Ruiter are consummate performers; their follwers are their audiences, their groupies. It's interesting to me how much some people need to follow, need someone to give them answers, tell them what to do and not to do to be good people. It's like my mother and the Pope. Feh.

6. maneela on 16 Jan 2005

   Reality is not what we make of it. Reality is what truly is without distortion or cover. Our experience of reality may be what we make of it. Reality stands on its own.

   Having no experience or understanding of something does not mean that it does not exist.
   
   The arrogance of some people is shocking.

7. Phil Stretch on 17 Jan 2005

   Well said maneela

8. Paul Atreides on 19 Jan 2005

   So John didn't give his word to Joyce that he would honour and cherish her in a monogamous relationship till death, and then break that vow and demand her acceptance, regardless of the emotional consequences to Joyce? So John didn't just go out, get his rocks off with two hot young blondies while his wife lay in bed in the next room weeping?

9. Paul Atreides on 14 Feb 2005

   Note the long period of time it seems to be taking the de Ruiter follower to reply. The Oasis Inc. official responses department must be in the back room working overtime to try and author a suitably convincing response...

10. Mark Walsh on 21 Mar 2005

    Life is simply a mirror to ourselves and when we have energy about something or someones behavior it is simply because something within ourselves is being triggered. Rather than be satisfied by a obvious personal opinion about someone else's behavior, why not consider looking into the mirror and asking why it even matters at all what de Ruiter is doing with his life. You will probably find more there than you expect and can begin the personal discovery of why that energy is there in the first place.
    I am not a memeber of de Ruiter's community or a supporter of his philosophy. Simply a regular guy searching for my own understanding of this wonderful thing called life.

11. Paul Atreides on 23 Mar 2005

    That's cute and all Mark, but what exactly is your point, and how does it relate to the discussion at hand concerning John de Ruiter and his cult?

12. Joshua on 25 May 2005

    I have been listening to tapes by De Ruiter given me by a friend and can't say I was blown away. Some sounded good to me, others pretty flat. I think there is truth in lots of what people are saying, positive and negative. I wonder though about why we are so quick to condemn him. I was most taken with Mark's comment in this respect. Am I any better? I can't claim that, so it is better to ask why I might get angry at him.

    Really? If the worst of the stories regarding the sexual stuff are true he committed adultery and shacked up with two attractive women, then lied about it. No long lines of abused devotees or their children. Of course for those concerned it's hard to bear perhaps but much of the emotion seems a bit overdone really. On the abuse scale of teachers it rates about a 2.5.

    The real quandry is his claim that all of this is 'true' in the human and ultimate sense of the word. Tough that one. Of course no one can dispute that really. Everyone has to accept their own truth that is inside. If he is living the truth, one beyond our understanding, then shame on us for our anger. If he is in denial and lost to the 'T'ruth, then pity on him and all those who follow him back into the wilderness. If he comits crimes against the law, punish him. If he commits a crime agianst the truth, in his own words that would be the loss of his own real self, the worst possible punishment.

    After some research, I feel happy to let him get on with his life. He does not limit the truth, so lets not limit it to him or his behaviour. Either way, can I realistically feel anything for him other than compassion?

    Please note I have not ever paid any money to him or invested any realy emotional energy in his 'thing' so this letting go of my blame of him might be a tad easier than for others!!

    Peace to all.

13. Paul Atreides on 01 Jun 2005

    I, on the other hand, have spoken firsthand with MANY ex-deruiterites who all claim that he concretely advises them of specific actions to take in life, like leaving their spouses, for example. That squarely places him in a position of responsibility, and it is wise for us all to dissect his every move, and every word, as he is dangerous to his followers.

    Family members should do everything they can to research and discredit this bozo. He IS wrecking lives and the people who have told me this DO blame him because he gave them direct orders to do disastrous things to their own lives. He is running a cult and this has NOTHING to do with religious tolerance.

14. Withheld on 29 Aug 2005

    As a direct relative of the "inner circle" I can personally guarantee that everything coming out of JDR's mouth is pure, unadulterated crap. Sure, he spouts the universal "truths" every other "en(b)lightened" being from time immemorial has spouted, but ask yourselves the following: What is the likelier story - that he is in direct communion with the esoteric fountain of "Truth" and received tuition directly from Jesus Christ (this story btw has changed in the interim)and that his actions emanate and are dictated by the Truth he so profoundly and completely embodies, or that he's really just an exploitive sociopath from the Canadian hinterland who came up with a great marketing ploy (selling a product you can't define) and is busy enjoying the fruits of his labours; namely sex, money, power?
    As Paul Atreides has elucidated, he is affecting lives, he is directing people's actions, and his influence is destructive. He has counseled divorce, departure, disenfranchisement, and practices "excommunication" when people do not toe the line. Is it any wonder then that "John the Philosopher" (his most recent titular metamorphosis)needs vicious Rottweilers and an endless array of legal disclaimers to protect his "teachings"? Man, I'd be scared too.

15. anonymous on 02 Sep 2005

    I can personally tell you that marriages do end over his influence on one of the partners. JDR is a blue eyed, manipulative, hypnotist. A champion manipulator. Many of his followers are chronically confused, believing they’ve heard something profound, when much of what is spoken is common sense, or has commonly been spoken by others, or is complete, unintelligible gibberish. Unfortunately, people avoid getting real help for personal and emotional issues, believing he’s the answer.

    The problem is that you can’t save someone from themselve. Some people are so desperate to believe in something or someone, they can’t even question what they think they know about John. It’s a big shame, the effect it has on those of us who aren’t “believers”. But maybe these people’s path is to go through this journey with John, until he someday crashes and burns or they come to a place where they feel the confidence to move on?

    If JDR has such insight into Truths' that are only revealed to him, then why doesn’t he put it all down into a document that intelligent people or maybe the UN could evaluate, so it can be used for the benefit of all mankind? This won’t happen, however. Because there is no “integrated philosophy”, and anyone who keeps their sense about them and isn’t overtaken by the blue eyes and trance state, will get dizzy trying to find either what is unique or to make sense in what’s being spoken. It’s much more profitable to sell tapes, videos, and adoring pictures of himself.

    I prefer to remain anonymous for now, but may perhaps contact others who may reply to my post.
    

16. Paul Atreides on 08 Sep 2005

    Well put anon. It's not like I've ever seen JDR slingin' soup at the Mustard Seed Church, or doing ANY charitable work whatsoever. His flock are self absorbed yuppies lounging on their thermarest chairs waiting for the answer from someone their sense of aesthetics respond to. The guys should just come out of the closet and the ladies should just outright hit on him. It'd be closer to the real truth - pure neediness.

    He's nobody's hero. It's not like we see him using his influence for good like lobbying Ottawa for gay rights, or getting the CBC/Telus Lockouts resolved. It's not like we ever see him showing up to Lake Wabamun to sling oil cleanup. He's a fraud, and a drug to a bunch of sucker's worthy of Ringling.

17. Withheld on 08 Sep 2005

    Bang on - from both posters, anon and Paul.
    You guys have hit it on the head - neediness.
    This when aggravated by the willingness to utterly abdicate any sense of responsibility for oneself makes for a noxious brew of exploitation - John gets the dough, the girls, and the adoration,and everyone gets what? Truth? If anyone can tell me just what exactly that is, I'll freakin' bow down and suck on his/her toes in reverence 'til I expire. But of course, that term is never defined 'cause if it were, there'd be no more hook and bye-bye good times, hello work. And that kids is the TRUTH.

18. I Am Concerned on 10 Oct 2005

    I have a friend who has recently started attending John's meetings. Now that my friend has been convinced of the existence of a universal "Truth", my friend seems more and more compelled to continue these meetings, in a quest to understand Truth. My intuition has been screaming that I should be helping my friend out of this trap.

    For those of you who have had relatives "follow" John, can you offer any advice as to how to address this with your relative without making him/her defensive? John seems to teach that intuition is a false manifestation of truth, so I am worried that when I tell my friend that my intuition is warning me about John, my friend may dismiss that.

19. withheld on 13 Oct 2005

    Concerned,
    Basically there is nothing you can do. If your friend sees value in what John is saying, the only thing you can do is hold on - this is going to be one hell of a ride!
    Remember the adage: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". Your friend will have to figure this out for him/herself. Eventually it will happen, but the damage and disillusionment that will accompany this revelation will be considerable. In other words, get ready to lose a friend. Of course, that is exactly what John's agenda is, especially given the fact that his new "college" is nearing completion. He needs all the neophytes, or more correctly, all the neophytes MONEY he can get.
    For what it's worth, you may want to point out that the universal Truth your friend has discovered is exactly that - UNIVERSAL. It is not the sole domain of John, nor his group, nor other self-styled "masters" of his ilk. It is yours, mine, and your friends' to discover, explore and enjoy as we/he/she see fit. Any other way of looking at universals fragments, and thereby denies their fundamental universality prima facie.
    My only other suggestion would be to stay in contact. That part of your friend that knows this is bs will eventually awaken and need an anchor in the real world. If you care for this person as you seem to, make sure you are there because he/she is going to need you. Good luck.

20. Paul Atreides on 17 Oct 2005

    My advice is to have a going away party for your friend because there ain't a single thing you can say or do for them. You can't even wait for them because it takes most de ruiterites years to wake up and smell the dipshit. Give up on the friend and friendship because those people are emotionally unreliable, manipulative, and destructive - unless you open yourself up to John.
    Bottom line, your pal would be better off hooked on crack or nintendo cause those are easier to quit and you should just get on with your life because religion for a wingnut is WAY more powerful a drug than you or your friendship can ever compete with, and believe me if you don't open yourself up to John, you will just feel the distance anyways...

21. Phil Andrews on 16 Dec 2005

    Your freind is in no danger from John De Ruiter ,whatsoever , he does not encourage people to leave their partners and Paul Atreides is so far up his own arse that it beggars belife

22. Paul Atreides on 19 Dec 2005

    Phil smoke more crack please... You can't even come up with a coherent sentence. "beggars belife"? What the heck is THAT? Some new punk band name? I personally know at least 20 EX JDR's and they ALL tell me that they have been DIRECTLY counselled by John to leave their partners to move to Edmonton. That far outweighs for me your pedantic poetry.

    Are YOU a Johnite desperately trying to hold onto reality? Hey, lemme shave my head, I'll be your Postcard Jesus and you can gimme all your money moron.

23. JLO on 28 Dec 2005

    Paul, can you contact me, please, via my email address: j_loome@yahoo.com

    Thanks.

24. withheld on 02 Jan 2006

    While John doesn't necessarily represent a physical threat, he is a considerable emotional and psychological threat. Despite what you think, or have been brainwashed into thinking Phil, John does indeed counsel people to leave spouses, boy/girlfriends, and most alarmingly, children.
    If you ever get a chance, ask his wife Benita why she threw her eldest son into the street with $200 and the clothes on his back. Then ask John why he not only condoned this act, but when questioned as to the boy's ability to "make it" answered: "not likely". As you are no doubt aware, this boy is now firmly in the grip of the group. Apparently the moral here is "my way, or the highway". Still think he's not dangerous?
    Ask her about her other son.
    Ask John why one of the group's members committed suicide.
    Ask him why he feels it's necessary to post legal disclaimers all over his meeting rooms and on his website.
    Ask Benita why she doesn't speak with her parents.
    Ask John why he counseled them to divorce.
    Ask her why she no longer talks to her siblings.
    For that matter, ask any other group member about those waiting back at home and the state of their communications with them.
    Ask his other wife Katrina why she is too scared to leave Edmonton.
    Ask her why she rarely shows up for meetings anymore.

    I think you will find in most cases that people have been psychologically, and/or emotionally coerced into leaving/damaging/altering significant relationships to prostrate themselves at the feet of "truth".

    If that doesn't satisfy you, ask him why authorities seized his German meeting earnings recently.
    Ask him why he keeps vicious dogs.
    Ask him why he keeps changing his official designation.
    Ask him about visitations from Jesus.
    Ask him why he needs a "college".

    Question everything, and then ask yourself if this is how a benevolent "master of truth" behaves.
    More importantly, ask yourself why you are defending John, and what that says about yourself and what you have invested in him.

25. Anon on 07 Jan 2006

    I'm told John has recently been advising people to stay toghet at all costs. Perhaps he's been reading these postings? I see that on his website, he has links to places where the word "cult" is defined. I guess it's a preemptive attempt to convince people that though it (his organization) walks like a duck and quaks like a duck, it's something other than a duck (cult).

    Withheld, your advice to Phil is appropriate, but in my experience in dealing with a Johnite, reason has no place in these peoples commitment to continue to blind themselves of what is obvious to the rest of us. And defend John they will, regardless of the evidence that is being presented.

    Interesting, when Phil (above) uses the phrase "beggars belief". This phrase is nonsensical. One can only guess what he means, as, to my knowledge, this is not an accurate use of the word. But isn't that exactly what JDR does all the time? Using nonsensical language, and it's only people's willingness to hold him to a different standard than the rest of us, that keeps them coming back. In other words, if they didn't already assume that he was somehow exempt from making sense, that it must be soooo profound, and that's why it doesn't seem to make any sense. NO, it actually is nonsense, much of the time. This kind of vague language keeps everyone very confused and, in fact, helps to entance or lull the mind into numbness.

    In some cultures, when one gazes into the eyes for long periods of time, esp. if not intimately involved with that person, it's considered to be robbing the soul. Johnites Love for John to "merge" with them. This is where he basically invades ones energy field with his energy field. He IS very effective, and in fact, very powerful at this. However, I observe that this is when people become Hooked! There becomes some kind of energetic connection that follower may be unaware of, or sees no harm in it. But if they are connected in this way, then are they continuing to follow John out of free will, at this point?

    I heard someone once suggest that he'd put her under his spell. I'm afraid that this was litterally true! It seems his strategy is to travel to other countries, connect with people psychically and get them Hooked, so they will leave family, home and everything else, and move to Edmonton, where they can be a stabble source of income and energy for John. It's as if he harvests souls! All under the guise of helping the person to Evolve their soul, or even more vague, to "become a real human being" Are the rest of us not real?
    

26. Anon on 08 Jan 2006

    Withheld, what are some of the reasons for the questions you pose? Just curious, as I don't think you'll get a Johnite to answer you. Do you have insight or opinions about these? I'm not as close to things as you, and am curious. Anon.

    Why did they seize his money in Germany?
    Why is the wife afraid to leave Edmonton and rarely come to meetings any more.

    I'd heard of someone dying, but didn't know it was a suicide.

    Why is the other wife estranged from siblings and parents?

    Anon

27. withheld on 12 Jan 2006

    Greetings Anon,
    I've read both your posts and agree wholeheartedly with what you contend regarding reason - it has been utterly suspended in the context of John and his group. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that it is being systematically stamped out - the classic hallmark of any cult.
    This, as you very correctly point out, is symptomatic of the exclusive language John has created to beguile, befuddle, and enslave his minions. The hook? Transcendental knowledge and experience. The line? Truth. The sinker? You already "know" it, you just don't realize. It is a cliche to be sure, but if history has taught me anything, it's that it tends to repeat itself.
    John is peddling nothing new, he's simply packaged the same tired esoteric rhetoric in a new wrapper - Truth. What is Truth? Well according to him, you already "know". Well, if I "know", why don't I know?
    Enter the mental/emotional disequilibrium and the first step in the breakdown of the individual has begun. And who is there to fill this existential vacuum? Well, we all know the answer...
    With regard to Phil, I think he is simply an ignorant individual, uneducated, and overly emotional. Critical thinking is something that must be cultivated. In his case, it obviously hasn't been. But then (and again you point this out) you don't need a mind to operate in John's group - you just need a pocketbook and a willingness to supplicate yourself.
    The "numbness" of mind you mention is interesting in that for many of his followers it manifests not so much as a deadened state of awareness, and more as an acutely focused one. They see/hear/smell/taste/touch nothing (or at best very little) of anything other than John and his "teachings". As such, I liken the phenomenon more to a drug addiction than a malaise. There is purpose, thought, reflection, emotion in the process that accompanies the addiction, but it is focused and realized only in or about John. All other phenomena in life are rendered meaningless under these conditions, hence the threat he represents.
    I didn't realize that John was now counseling people to stay together. Apparently Truth has many faces. My experience of him has shown him (and in particular his wife Benita) to be a master manipulator and politician. He has a penetrating understanding of people to be sure, but chooses to use that understanding to manipulate and exploit rather than understand and aid. For her part, Benita is a masterful arguer with a sharp intellect, honed to a razor's-edge in her legal studies (which she abandoned partway to join John's group). Truth for her is a sword of Damocles - a threat whereby she can coerce followers into line. Nothing hurts more to a Johnite that to ask: "Why are you acting against what you "know"." It is a ruthless, but effective tactic put to good use in both their families to say nothing of the many others) to break them up.
    So really, it is possible that someone can fall under John's "spell". Whether or not that happens though is a matter of an individuals willingness to let it happen. When they do, they invest in what I liken to a "new identity" for themselves. I can think of nothing more painful to bear than an attack on one's identity, and no more powerful way to hook a person. It's worked for years in armies. It's working for John too...
    Regarding the monies in Germany, bailiffs seized his meeting take because he has failed to pay legally owed taxes for his earnings on those meetings over the last few years.
    Re his wife/wives, I won't elaborate here. Perhaps she/they would in private. Suffice it to say that one is subjected to considerable coercion and is virtually prohibited from going anywhere or doing anything unless it is specifically warranted by John/group needs. This prohibition extends to family contact of any kind.

    On the suicide, I don't have all the details. I just got the information that it had taken place from long-standing members who asked that I not repeat it. It is somewhat of a scandal within the group and is not discussed openly. I can say that the legal disclaimers and mental health info posted on the group's website were the direct result of that suicide.

    withheld
    

28. Anonymous on 12 Jan 2006

    Withheld,
    Thanks for that update. I question how Benita, with her sharp intellect, can't realize that much of the time, inspite of many words beeing spoken, nothing is actually being said. Maybe she and others have so much invested in this "religion" that she continues to blind herself?

    So he got busted for being less than squeeky clean. How could that be? I wonder if any of the followers are aware of this? Of course, they will do whatever it takes to blind themselves to it. I was waiting for such realities to happen. Surely there will be more.

    How can this guy prohibit anyone from family contact? Are the girl's parents completely under the spell too? I guess, since the wives have given up their own careers, now they fall into the "battered wife syndrome" so far as being so dependent on the man, that they don't see any way out?

    So far as reason is concerned, what mystifies meis that some of these people are intelligent and accomplished. I once read that in the history of the world, no one who was been brain washed has ever believed they were brain washed. And they say that intelligence has nothing to do with it.

    It's too bad about the suicide. Unfortunately, too often, people who really need prefessional help seek out the likes of John, in place of doing so. And I don't believe he EVER advises Anyone to do anything for themselves, outside of coming to his meetings.

    I wonder if John realizes what he's doing? If he thinks he's as clean and True as the group believes he is? Or if he believes he's saying something profound, when he speaks in circles, or if it's just what works to keep some people entranced and bound to him? Is it's an act, and it's all about power, adulation and money?

    Best regards,

    Anon

29. Elaine of Kalilily on 12 Jan 2006

    I have heard it said that we are often much better at fooling ourselves than we are at fooling other people. I would not be surprised if that is the case with John.

    By the way, whether you all realize it or not, you are having this conversation on my weblog: www.kalilily.net, on a post I made back in May of 2003. I invite you to scroll up, click on the mountain scene, and find out a little about just who your hostess for this conversation is. Not that it really matters in terms of this conversation; but I invite you over anyway.

    Elaine of Kalilily

30. Paul Atreides on 13 Jan 2006

    Already have Elaine, and thanks for hosting the forum. We are all in your debt.

31. withheld on 13 Jan 2006

    I too am deeply indebted and truly appreciate what you are facilitating here Elaine. Apart from the engaging repartee you are hosting, you may well be affording those who are enslaved by John an opportunity to participate in discussions they are otherwise barred from having. It's a gift whose significance they'll recognize once they leave the group, and hence, only retrospectively. In addition, this kind of exchange is (at least for me) very cathartic. Again, you have my thanks.

32. Anonymous on 15 Jan 2006

    Hi, Elaine. Yes I am indebted also. It's been valuable to have others, who are closer to the scene, to commiserate with, and to get advice.

    I took your advice and checked out the rest of your site. Very impressive what you've done with this little site. You sure are prolific! It's inspiring to see what one person can do.
    

33. mattwilliams on 06 Jun 2006

    I just came across this post today...

    I met John DeRuiter in the fall of 1999 and moved to Edmonton 2 months later. I spent almost 2 years there and attended many meetings.

    Within ourselves we can worship many things but real love is not worship. Worship can bring us so close that we become very disturbed. Real love addresses this disturbance and invites the same within worship.

    Real love is being responsible and it does not need to see something that isnt there. When I went to Edmonton I was trying to worship something, to make myself safe. I wanted safety....from responsibility and accountability. I wanted God to take me into a heaven where I could be free from doubt.

    I heard things about John..I sought out this information...all second hand. That he had met Jesus. That he was Truth. That John was capable of being responsible in a supernatural way. That John was becoming the Saviour of our time. I needed to know one thing....that he could save me...I needed to know I was safe from hell...from pain and suffering....I needed to know I was going with him....that I had a place where he had a place.

    I needed to know there was a meaning to my life...

    My desparation to secure myself almost ended in suicide...I felt I could not leave and there was nowhere to hide. My experience was afflicting...it was a state of needing and wanting to die. It no longer felt like a choice....I was stuck and being torn up inside in a way that I can not relate except to say it was afflicting...like being trapped in a panic attack for over a year....and the things I thought and felt were horrible...

    I came to meetings and demanded his help....his solution....I wanted something in return for my worship and there was nothing. I lost all meaning and descended into a meaningless place where I was a great villian...I was truely hating myself to death.

    His greatest gift was in his manner...throughout this time a saw a person humble himself and admit not his failings, but something else. What he admited into himself was honesty itself, in a remarkable manner... into all situations.....and it was dear. Over time I love him only for this reason...

    he was honest with me...and in that honesty I found his concern for my own responsibility dear to me.

    I realized my grandfather had done the same thing...
    he was worshipped by our family ....he was kind and responsible....he did not abuse his authority....he never "helped" anyone....yet all were lead to something they cherished and admired in his manner.

    John De Ruiter is not a god or a "good" man....he is not a good man....he is a man whose flaws are acknowledged and yet not treated harshly....not overlooked or compensated but addressed in a way that is dear...

    I am writing this and reminded of this quote:

    "Any claim concerning John de Ruiter’s way of being
    and his understanding of the living way of Truth is not to be believed; rather, its authenticity can be
    profoundly recognized and known"

    That is what is not bound and cannot be bound in anyone...

    What binds one to another in a constricting way exists but , if one is dearly honest, the binding can pass away...when that honesty touches both...it is to that one I am grateful...because I thought it was all about myself and John...

    but these things cannot be reconciled...what is already reconciled is dear to me...

    Sincerely

    Matt Williams

    
    
    

34. fremenwarrior on 13 Jun 2006

    So, Matt, basically what you are saying is that he couldn't help you, and was only honest about it after taking your money. Nice that he would tell you that after swiping 5 bux from your wallet after taking advantage of your tender nature by advertising core splitting truth that can help you in your time of need. After all that, he finally let you in on the biggest secret of all, that you have to help yourself, and for that you THANK him?

    Oh boy. Stop thinking in poetry for a start. That's a good place for anyone to start healing. Get a good job and a cat. Hug a friend, and help a little old lady across the road. Brush your teeth, change your underwear regularly. Have at least one sport, and one artistic hobby. Take a little time to enjoy the simple things in life, like perhaps even just watch a nice video on tv or take a walk by the river.

    These are all things that can immediately improve your life. If your finances are in disarray, balance your checkbook or seek credit counselling. If you are physically ill, get a doctor.

    There are plenty of things that John could have told you, but he chose not to because he already has your money and he doesn't know shit nor give a shit.

    You are deluded when you say that, "he is a man whose flaws are acknowledged and yet not treated harshly....not overlooked or compensated but addressed in a way that is dear..."

    For the rest of society, who are not poor brainwashed mentally ill people who should by rights be patients seeing phd psychologists instead of Jimmy Bakker, we DO both acknowledge his faults, and we certainly tend to think it neither CUTE nor DEAR. In fact most of us think he's an idiot - so should you.

    John is a fraudulent feelgood artist for flakes. But thanks for your contribution to the discussion Matt, it's nice to see that the flock is maintaining its usual sheepish quality. He's got you so convinced in him that even after he totally lets you down, even after you admit he's a flawed schlepp, you still "love" him - seemingly even more than yourself.

    Have you ever considered that you yourself may not be mentally/emotionally healthy enough to be recommending anybody to anyone? After all, you spent a full year in a panic attack. You might not be the best expert opinion to rely upon. Indeed your flowery vague poetry seems to indicate that from a mental standpoint, you may not be out of the woods yet, and thus are in no position to be offering recommendations as to what guru "works".

35. mattwilliams on 17 Jun 2006

    Hello,

    If someone can be frustrated, if they strike out against another, or themself, if they seek to overpower another or define another for the safety
    of there own self....these are the true misuses of power. When I let myself see what is reconciled, when I allow myself to acknowledge my own misuse of my own power...something that is worth more than me becomes apparent. It brings the clarity that does not need my support. That is why it does not bind anything in me.

    If this is vague then there is a genuine oppritunity for honesty. The weakness you sense in me is real. It was my treatment of this weakness and my misuse of this weakness that hurt me most of all. To know that there is something that does not hurt weakness....that is tender enough to be with and not cause further damage...this is what I have acknowledged in my post.
    
    This you already know.

    Matt

36. mattwilliams on 17 Jun 2006

    Hello,

    If someone can be frustrated, if they strike out against another, or themself, if they seek to overpower another or define another for the safety
    of there own self....these are the true misuses of power. When I let myself see what is reconciled, when I allow myself to acknowledge my own misuse of my own power...something that is worth more than me becomes apparent. It brings the clarity that does not need my support. That is why it does not bind anything in me.

    If this is vague then there is a genuine oppritunity for honesty. The weakness you sense in me is real. It was my treatment of this weakness and my misuse of this weakness that hurt me most of all. To know that there is something that does not hurt weakness....that is tender enough to be with and not cause further damage...this is what I have acknowledged in my post.
    
    This you already know.

    Matt

37. fremenwarrior on 27 Jun 2006

    Unfortunately, virtually everything Matt has written above is seriously misguided gibberish. Most of it reads like a first trip with the thesaurus. The only real way one can respond to such a convoluted posting that leads nowhere is to break it down, sentence for sentence, translating it term for term.

    Let's start with Matt's first statement, which is:

    "If someone can be frustrated, if they strike out against another, or themself, if they seek to overpower another or define another for the safety
    of there own self....these are the true misuses of power."

    You have lumped a lot of things in this sentence, each of which you characterize as "true misuses of power". Let's look at these supposed "misuses".

    a) "If someone can be frustrated...these are the true misuses of power"
    -This statement is ridiculous. We are all frustratable at times, because we are limited beings who take risks. Everyone experiences frustration in life, but it is hardly a "misuse of power". That's like saying the kid who is frustrated at failing his math test is a "misuse of power".

    b) "if they strike out against another"
    -it might be simply self defense...

    c) "or themselves"
    -killing or hurting one's own self is more of a personal choice borne by people who have emotional healthcare needs. It is something to be compassionate and sensitive towards, hardly something to be characterized as a "misuse of power". It's not like we tell people who get tattoos that they should be ashamed for misusing their power over their bodies. Even our prisons are no longer prisons, they have - thankfully, evolved into "corrections facilities" indicating a value on forgiveness and the fact that we are all capable of falling.

    d) " if they seek to overpower another or define another for the safety of there own self"
    -At every level of human experience there are necessary moments of overpowering individuals who threaten the safety of our own persons and in many cases, the greater community at large. Indeed, for my own safety and the safety of my 6 yr old son, I tend to define others all the time. The boy's teacher, for example, is defined very well as a nurturing, positive educator in his life. The pedophile around the corner is defined as a threat to the safety of a LOT of people's selves. Get used to people judging you for your negative actions Matt. The only reason you don't judge John for the things he's done can only be either because:
    a) it didn't happen to you so you don't care.
    b) you sympathize as a fellow adulterer or someone who thinks they could be one?
    c) you are unbelieveably naive about negative consequences.
    d) you haven't got morals. And if you aint got a moral compass, you should be worried. But then again, maybe you already are worried and are in denial here on this board. Maybe that one year panic attack was the one healthy shred of your nervous system kicking in, screaming loudly that you are a few beers short of the proverbial sixpack. Maybe that panic attack was one little bit of conscience kicking in saying, "Matt, stop lusting after little boys, or your best friend's wife, or that bag of coke...and stop thinking about plunging a knife into your sister"
    e) you don't think adultery is bad. Again see above for post on morals.

    Certainly it's NOT a "true misuse of power" to judge others who, like John, have proven through their own actions that they are untrustworthy and a threat to the safety of others. You just obviously don't like the idea that you may be judged. Too bad so sad.

    Matt then follows his opener up with the statement, " When I let myself see what is reconciled, when I allow myself to acknowledge my own misuse of my own power...something that is worth more than me becomes apparent."

    I'm not sure how to interpret that particular gibberish simply because there is no detail in the poetry. The word "reconcile" is defined by Merriam Webster's as "to restore to friendship or harmony", so I can only assume that Matt you mean to say that when you see harmony after the battle, after all the bullshit, you can finally get to the point where you can admit to having taken advantage of your power to the point of misuse, and through that NORMAL EVERYDAY regret, you see that there's something bigger out there than you? Good grief. That's not something that you should need a guru for. That's normal regret. It makes normal people change for the better. In John's case, he lives in denial because he doesn't actually recognize his misuse of power. In the case of his infidelity, for example, John still thinks he has nothing to regret, and neither obviously, do you. That's the problem with John and Johnites. You don't really have consciences that the rest of us can rely on in any way, no matter how light. The average Johnite's effete intellectualized selfishness is up front, but your lack of ability to guage right and wrong and to take responsibility is what really makes the average Johnite's personal character incredibly suspect and weak. Every Johnite I know has marital problems in the extreme - unless the partner "gives themselves to John"

    You then state that " It brings the clarity that does not need my support. That is why it does not bind anything in me. " Which I presume means that; discovering that there exists something bigger than you (and your selfishness) is something that is true and clear, regardless of whether or not you agree (sheep), and that somehow you are free because of it's "truthiness". The only problem with that is the question of RESPONSIBILITY. Once an individual recognizes a potentially harmful situation, it is our moral obligation to act in a responsible fashion. John had adulterous sexual intercourse in the very moment in which he should have been morally aware of the negativity with which he was operating and when made even more aware of the emotional hurt he was causing his wife and children. This is especially problematic if he's supposedly so intelligent and caring and a leader of a spiritual group (obviously a cult in his case though...). He could have taken a moment or two to care enough to keep his pecker in his pants, and when you apologize for him, you make the rest of us sick with your morality in much the same way that a pedophile sickens the healthy heart.

    Plus I will point out that when you say, "That is why it does not bind anything in me." I just view that comment as yet another abdication of your moral responsibility to actually LIVE ethically in full view of the truth - as everyone sees it. Not just your own stunted version of the truth as validated by an adulterous cult leader who has your money.

    "If this is vague then there is a genuine oppritunity for honesty." It's vague. And misguided. As for your idea that vagueness presents opportunities for the truth to be known, that's as ridiculous a statement as any could be. In order for truth and honesty to occur, there must be clear communication with very little vagueness. Vagueness is the last thing that anyone finds useful in couple's counselling, for example. The only people who find vagueness useful are politicians, cult leaders, and snake oil merchants.

    "The weakness you sense in me is real. It was my treatment of this weakness and my misuse of this weakness that hurt me most of all. "
    -Yeah Matt, this is the only thing you have written that makes any sense at all, and it's still only half right because chances are it was John's misuse of your weakness that will hurt you most of all.

    "To know that there is something that does not hurt weakness....that is tender enough to be with and not cause further damage...this is what I have acknowledged in my post."
    -I presume you are in this statement, extolling the praises of John as the force that supposedly is tender enough to be with and supposedly not cause further damage. Well, John and his teachings do cause damage. His teachings separate people from the greater public and even more tragically, often from their loved ones. Matt, you should know that there are lots of things in the world that do not hurt weakness. Those things are usually charitable enough to not require cash at the door. Those things are usually loving enough to not require that one distance themselves from loved ones - or their hard earned cash. John takes advantage of weakness - exploits it for his own gain. All just because you find his baleful stare convincing, and his vague non-answers equally duping. Rational people like me just figure folks like you are simply in the closet, and find John unbelievably attractive. So perhaps maybe a boyfriend would make a wonderful addition to your life. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you simply followed John because you thought he was sexy. You wouldn't be the first person to be seduced by a powerful figure. Aesthetics work on a non-sexual level as well. Perhaps you just love the way the guy looks and he could sell you tickets to your own mother's funeral. Lot's of good people have been duped that way. That's why we have laws.

    Finally, you end with the incredibly pedantic line, "This you already know.", which sounds like some priest in church at the end of a reading from the Bible. It has the same tone as the old Catholic's, "This is the word of the Lord" as if simply saying it makes it so. Actually Matt, I DON'T already "know" the drivel you posted. I KNOW that you are a deluded pitiable sheep in dire need of PHD psychiatric therapy, and NO I don't think simple counselling will do.

    And you should make a healthy start by despising creeps like John and ceasing to preach on his behalf. Your defense of his conduct is more than enough indication that you are deeply confused. The flowery prose you have built using terms you don't even know the meaning of indicates that you simply don't have the lexicon to heal yourself, and it further indicates that you are quite separated from reality and general society. Again, I urge you to immediately seek professional help, and definitely stay away from drugs and alcohol. Not that I am against them, personally I recommend drugs and alcohol to just about any normal healthy person as a great way to occasionally blow off steam from a good balanced life, but quite simply, in your case you are not in a good healthy mental state, and your panic attacks indicate a potential physical condition which could be greatly exacerbated by malnutrition, drugs, or alcohol. Since you also have to give the same caution to your emotional health, I would also make the same recommendation vis a vis religious cult leaders. You definitely shouldn't take them either, especially at this tender time Matt.

38. mattwilliams on 27 Jun 2006

    A healthy start is to begin looking at yourself...

    Other people and their "defects", like the ones I could invent in you, I can't love...

    Its not what you are saying, or even from where it is coming that is a problem...

    The problem is mine...if I choose to make it so

    Which I refuse to do.

    
    

39. fremenwarrior on 28 Jun 2006

    Well Matt, you've just illustrated my point. Johnite's simply don't have enough spine for the truth, neither to hear it, nor speak it. Instead of responding to my well thought out analysis in detail, the best you can do is tell us that you can't love others and their defects - especially the ones you would like to invent. Your cowardice in backing down from discussing my points and dishonesty in acting as if are amazing. And indeed the problem is yours, and your myopic delusional idea that you can simply "choose" to wish it away is equally misguided. No wonder you devoted 2 years to at the feet of John, worshipping some dude.

    In addition Matt, you are promoting John here in this forum, so you have to be reasonable and expect that people are going to levy judgments. If you really believe in the "truth" then defend clearly and understandably. If you can't, then perhaps you should NOT be promoting John, and that's what this debate is about. When you say that "A healthy start is to begin looking at yourself..." I can see the bitterness in those words, and yet you still don't actually have the courage to get into it here with me regarding these observations and speculations that I have made. While I do agree that it is a good thing to look at one's own self as a place to start, I hardly see how your comment relates to the discussion at hand, especially since I am not a Johnite...

    When you say, "Its not what you are saying, or even from where it is coming that is a problem..." you betray a profound ignorance of what has been said in the first place. First of all, your bitterness is directly stemming from an anger over what I have said here - you just don't have a clue how to respond, other than to abdicate and withdraw. Second of all, you haven't a clue where "it is coming from", and even if you did, you wouldn't have the spine to say it.

40. kalilily on 29 Jun 2006

    As the owner of this weblog, I'm going to intrude here and remind everyone that we all "see things as WE are, not necessarily as THEY are." Fragile personalities often hold onto stronger ones for support rather than (or before they) take the difficult road of strengthening their own. As someone who tends to mistrust the motives of most authority figures, it's clear what my take is on John. However, keep in mind that I moderate these comments, and if I think attacks are getting too personal, I will exercise my option to delete them. I would prefer that commenters use this space in a positive way -- to encourage autonomy and self-determination as a way to enlightenment rather than following the notions of a leader of any kind. But keep it off the personal level, please.

41. mattwilliams on 29 Jun 2006

    
    Freemanwarrior,

    
    Here is the end portion of my original post:

    
    "What binds one to another in a constricting way exists but , if one is dearly honest, the binding can pass away...when that honesty touches both...it is to that one I am grateful...because I thought it was all about myself and John..."

    Kindness is worth following....strength that arises from anything else is cruel when it meets that which it cannot master.

42. mattwilliams on 30 Jun 2006

    Hello again Freemenwarrior,

    I just wanted to say that through our exchange, I have had to reevaluate why I posted my personal story here in the first place. Talking with you has been a good and it has been good to meet you. In our arguement, I can see how I have participated. So I will say I am sorry for any hard feelings I have caused and all the best to you. I realize you are indeed a friend first.

    Matt

43. kalilily on 30 Jun 2006

    Let me clarify: Any person is welcome to post his/her own story. That's often the best way to make a point. I'm just asking that those who post here refrain from getting confrontational with those who do not agree with them. Give your perspective but don't denigrate other people. Heh. Except John, of curse. :-) Questioning his honesty and morality was what my post was about in the first place.

44. fremenwarrior on 30 Jun 2006

    As much as I hate to offend someone, I simply had to speak my mind on what I see in Matt's writing. One can call it confrontational but when confronted with a phenomenon like "de ruiter", I have a tendency towards zero patience regarding the usual vagueness that John himself uses. When I saw Matt use it, I naturally and reasonably trashed it point for point. If that trashes Matt himself (namely his personal character) point for point, that was never my intention. However, if that is the end result - it would indicate that too much of Matt's character is mirroring John's at that point.

    Further, in regards to Matt's latest addition to the discussion, "Kindness is worth following....strength that arises from anything else is cruel when it meets that which it cannot master." I note the overwhelmingly common sense nature regarding this statement, and I also strongly note that this statement in no way relates to John de Ruiter, a man who in no way exemplifies kindness.

    He does not participate in charitable functions whatsoever, his for profit scam cult breaks up families and destroys lives, all for the bargain basement price of his wife's dignity and family. That isn't kind, and it indicates just what kind of a person he is. Matt, you would be foolish to take my words as a confrontation when I say that you follow an unkind man who is unfit to lead anyone spiritually.

    Finally, I also fully recognize that this person named "Matt" is just as likely a fictional creation of the de Ruiter OASIS group. Feelings hurt? Maybe? Truth? If he's an adult, discussing adult things here, he has to have a thick skin if he's gonna participate basically representing John. It's like being the one McDonald's rep at a PETA convention - he might have a hard time finding righteous arguments...

45. mattwilliams on 01 Jul 2006

    I am a real person who left Edmonton in 2003. My name is Matt Williams and I live in Hope, BC, Canada with my wife Michelle who I met at John's meetings in 1999....I started an Internet Cafe here 2 years ago and its doing well...its small but managable. As time goes past, my encounters in Edmonton are becoming more of a dream. What is left over is heart template for me to understand that I am not alone in struggling to do my best and at the same time experiencing a deep sense of failure as it seems my best, when weighed against the ultimate good, is not good enough.

    When I was young the first person I really followed in an archetypal way was Johnny Cash. I was maybe 10 years old and I could experience something in him that made me feel something valuable in myself. I went to see him and at the end of the show he gave a few autographs, and one he gave to me. After that, not sure why, I moved on.

    I was thinking about the similarities between Johnny Cash and John DeRuiter. What was charitable was the little things they did that showed love. Like the autograph. I played some songs on guitar and sang in a metting in Edmonton and it was It told me that I had meaning. Because I trusted their strength deeply, felt its goodness, I also trusted when they let me know, that I existed.

    And noone can argue for the the state of there souls...gods or devils. But those who have experienced love...they know these are fellow human beings who too are struggling...and yet they always mention that there is a higher calling on everyone's life. A call to be gentle with yourself and with others...a call to love God....a call to trust yourself and work through your weaknesses...

    Johnny Cash is worshipped to a larger extent than is John Deruiter....he had a community of family and friends that his job sustained and still sustains after his death...he also had a house in Jamaica and lived a wealthy man...he was the center of life for thousands of people and was known and listened to by millions of people....he was a true christian in that he spoke of his love for a man he never met but felt the worth of that man and how that was the most important thing in his life...that without knowing the life and real love of Jesus, a man, he would not have come to know his own worth as a man...in the end, his courage and love outweighs his mistakes and flaws....it is awesome to see that shining through...

    So yes, I am saying there is no difference....two men in whom you can see something meaningful...and there very mistakes and flaws make them men, not gods or devils...

    I just watched a documentary on Johnny Cash...many people interviewed and the meaning he brought to there lives is undeniable...the love they feel for him is healthy and enriches there life...as Kris Kristoferson said "Bob Dylan said the best thing about Johnny Cash....he's like the Nothern Star....you can guide your ship by him..."

    Here a great song by Johnny called "No Earthly Good"

    Come hear me good brothers come here one and all
    Don't brag about standing or you'll surely fall
    You're shinin' your light yes and shine if you should
    You're so heavenly minded and you're no earthly good
    No earthly good you are no earthly good
    You're so heavenly minded you're no earthly good
    You're shinin' your light yes and shine if you should
    You're so heavenly minded and you're no earthly good

    Come here me good sisters you're salt of the earth
    If your salt isn't salted then what is it worth
    You could give someone a cool drink if you would
    You're so heavenly minded and you're no earthly good
    No earthly good you are no earthly good
    You're so heavenly minded you're no earthly good
    You could give someone a cool drink if you would
    You're so heavenly minded and you're no earthly good

    If you're holdin' heaven then spread it around
    There are hungry hands reaching up here from the ground
    Move over and share the high ground where you stood
    So heavenly minded and you're no earthly good
    No earthly good you are no earthly good
    You're so heavenly minded you're no earthly good
    Move over and share the high ground where you stood
    So heavenly minded and you're no earthly good
    No earthly good...
    

46. mattwilliams on 01 Jul 2006

    should have read the lyrics before I posted...I got them off a lyric site....

    heres a better rendition of this song that I've written down from the actual Cash song from the new release of his personal tapes...

    No Earthly Good

    Come heed me my brothers, come heed one and all
    Don't brag about standing or you'll surely fall
    Your shining your light and shine it you should
    But your so heavenly minded your no earthly good

    If your holding heaven then spread it around
    Theres hungry hands reaching up here from the ground
    Move over and share the high ground where you stood
    So Heavenly minded, you're no earthly good

    The gospel aint gospel until it is spread
    But how can you share it where you've got you're head?
    There's hands that reach out, for a hand, if you would
    So heavenly minded your no earthly good

    If your holding heaven then spread it around
    Theres hungry hands reaching up here from the ground
    Move over and share the high ground where you stood
    So Heavenly minded, you're no earthly good

47. fremenwarrior on 04 Jul 2006

    First off, letting you play one song is a joke. John's meetings USED to have lots of different people playing music and sharing - that is until John recognized that other people were becoming the "rock stars" stealing his thunder. Interesting that you consider letting an artist play a song to be "charity".

    Second, there is a MAASSSIVE difference between John and Johnny Cash. While I do agree that both men are "entertainers", Johnny Cash had actual insight and humility, and was willing to give detail concerning his beliefs, convictions, and statements. Johnny Cash would NEVER have called himself "core splitting truth", and I seriously doubt that Johnny Cash would have ever bothered with the likes of de Ruiter. Saying there is no difference between Johnny Cash and the biggest spiritual con-man in Canada is both insulting and truly dumb.

    Johnny Cash spent his life reaching out to everyday folk, travelling without big security (unlike John), talking to everyday people in bars, hotels, prisons, etc. The whole time, he never ONCE professed to have the answers. John does, after all - he's core splitting truth!

    The very song you posted seems to be a direct criticism of so called spiritualists like John de Ruiter - so obsessed with their own "faith sales", so obsessed with their own idea of god and "truth", that they need to sack 2 identical twin sisters in the same home as his wife for his own sick perverted pleasure, all while supposedly being god's chosen vessel of truth. The same truth he charges MONEY for. The same truth that made people leave their families or kill themselves.

    No Matt, you certainly haven't said a thing here that convinces me you aren't seriously misguided.

    Here's a good question: In real detail, grammatically correct plain English, tell us why you no longer follow John?

48. mattwilliams on 05 Jul 2006

    Hey Freemenwarrior,

    That is a good question.
    
    I left everything behind in Toronto and took a bus to Edmonton. I left it to the community there to accept and support my decision. When I was accepted, I continued to live in a state of delusion, shuning my personal responsibility to myself and others. I made myself a part of someone else's life (John Deruiter) without his invitation, and tried to make his strength and position my own. It didn't work.
    
    When I left Edmonton, I left a tab of money owed to Oasis Inc. (unpaid retreat fees) What I realize is that I wasn't following anything but my own self directed agenda, which was just plainly being dishonest. I see myself then as a stalker...someone who sees the light in another and mistakenly believes this light is personally for them...it was akin to that...not very nice to see, but it was that way. It would be like me talking to you at your workplace, and one day showing up at your door and walking into your house , not even asking "Wheres my room?"....just taking one....and then going into the fridge and drinking out of the milk jug!
    
    The meetings are constantly drawing in new people, some misguided like me, some completely guided by something more realistic.

    The people who are truely with John are not following him. And they are probally few. They are part of his life, and he is a part of theirs, naturally. He has a family. I am not saying there are not "followers" in Edmonton, and people who try to belong to something in an unrealistic way. And this is the hardest lesson to learn and maybe the most common one for followers.

    “Profound Reality is inviolable and unshakeable. Take care of what you put your feet into.”

    Getting back to the Johnny Cash comparison, he left his first wife for June Carter. It worked for everyone in its own way, including his children.

    What I came to see is that, like Johnny Cash, I can enjoy his ability and his gifts as a human being. But these are not my gifts and I cannot expect these gifts to supplement me in any way. They belong to the one who earned them.

    I am not saying there are not false prophets because there most definitely are. But the question I have for you is this....

    What would a genuine prophet do in this world?
    

    
    

49. kalilily on 05 Jul 2006

    Actually, Matt asks an provocative question, but I think "prophet" is not the right word. Let's assume there are no prophesies that can be made; let's assume life is what we make it and make of it. So, perhaps the question is "what would a truly good, holy individual do in the world as it currently is?" Become like Mother Theresa? The Dalai Lama? The Berrigan Brothers? Someone like Jesus would be on the street homeless or in a mental institution or living at home with his folks. As for DeRuiter, rather than associate the word "prophet" with him, I would link him with "profiteer."

    I look forward to hearing what you all think a contemporary holy man or woman might be like -- or have to be like, given the tenor of the times.

50. fremenwarrior on 08 Jul 2006

    Matt, I am still having major problems with the extreme contradictions in your statements. It's wholesale dishonest for you to pretend that John advertises no invitation to follow him. You may have sought out spritualists as some kind of wierd non-standard form of personal therapy, but regardless - you found John due to good advertising. "I made myself a part of someone else's life (John Deruiter) without his invitation" is just about as far from the TRUTH as anything can get. This is a man who has a professional marketing machine behind him, advertising himself as TRUTH ITSELF. Surely you can see the difference between that and Johnny Cash marketed as a simple Rock n' Roller...

    Indeed, your own actions show a level of dishonesty with yourself and others that I find truly uncomfortable. You act as if John didn't invite you, and that he has much to offer - your contention is that you did learn much at his feet and that your are mighty grateful for what you learned, but yet at the same time you teach us a completely different message when you skip out on the bill with OASIS. Pardon me Mr. Thief, but you are either Mr. Thief or Mr. Liar. You can't have it both ways. One cannot escape that conclusion, based on your statements. Evidently, you don't value the teachings, nor your own integrity. You racked up a bill. Pay it off deadbeat. You've had over 2 years and since your business is doing well, you have really had no excuse in avoiding it now have you? Even if one assumes a certain amount of clemency due to possible financial hardship, I doubt you have made any actual arrangements to pay, which would be the normal course of action for an ethical man in trouble.

    Actions speak louder than words Matt, and your actions tell us the REAL value you place on de Ruiter; it also tells us that your praise for him is disingenuous and I suspect your saying it only serves to make YOU feel better about yourself somehow.

    In regards to the ridiculous question of what a holy man should "be like", or what characteristics they should have, I can only state that anyone who thinks they can tell you a full answer to that question is the LAST person you want to listen to. It's pretty easy though, to tell when a person ISN'T acting very holy. One indicator is when they stink their married dinky into twin sister pinky in the family home, mere meters away from dutiful committed wifey! This is elementary basic ethics. At the very least, I can say with a bunch of certainty that anyone who DOESN'T get that up front I would suspect isn't "prophet" material...

51. mattwilliams on 08 Jul 2006

    
    My question was an invitation for you to begin to be honest about your position in this discussion.

    Have you met John?
    
    What has led you to your position in this matter?

    
    What I am asking is do you have any actual experience with this man or are you simply making judgements?

    Because judgements without real understanding or experience are really just prejudice....

    
    I am genuinely interested in your experience is you want to share what it was or is....

    
    (I have paid off my debt to Oasis this year and bought some new discussions which are good)

    Anyway, here are some quotes I looked up which I thought I would share...

    We are each burdened with prejudice; against the poor or the rich, the smart or the slow, the gaunt or the obese. It is natural to develop prejudices. It is noble to rise above them.

    
    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly - that is the first law of nature. ~Voltaire

    
    Prejudices are the chains forged by ignorance to keep men apart

    
    Everyone is a prisoner of his own experiences. No one can eliminate prejudices - just recognize them. ~Edward Roscoe Murrow, 31 December 1955

    I am an invisible man.... I am a man of substance, of flesh and bone, fiber and liquids - and I might even be said to possess a mind. I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me. ~Ralph Ellison, The Invisible Man, 1952

    
    Freemenwarrior

    You have yet to reveal anything about yourself. Your personal opinion of another

52. mattwilliams on 08 Jul 2006

    end part was not supposed to be there...

53. fremenwarrior on 09 Jul 2006

    "My question was an invitation for you to begin to be honest about your position in this discussion." - Your opening statement is yet another lie Matt, and an evasion.Your question had nothing to do with any perceived honesty issue in me. Your question was specific, it was "What would a genuine prophet do in this world?". It's easy to see that you are testing out John's teachings in neuro linguistic programming. The actual question you originally posited has many answers, but NOWHERE in it is an invitation for me to, as you pedantically put it, "begin to be honest about your position in this discussion.". You simply couldn't actually respond to my post and decided to jump tracks. Typical Johnite attempt at avoidance but predictably clumsy and ineffective. My position in this discussion has been clear from the beginning. I am not sure I understand what you have found to be "dishonest" about my position in this matter. Every single thing I have written is not only based on reported facts, and is stated right up front as my own personal opinion based on those reported facts. That's generally the status quo on forums. You just don't care for my opinions, and that's your prerogative, but you are merely deceiving your own self if you think I haven't been honest about my position. My position is that John de Ruiter is an unethical conman running the oldest scam in the book. I honestly feel that judgement against him, and have not hid the fact that this is my personal opinion/judgement in any way.

    Secondly, you ask if I have met John, as if one needs to have met Jeffrey Dahmer to know that one should avoid him. It's none of your business Matt - but yes, I have. He's a spaced out self consumed arrogance child - playing with life and others lives like a child with plastic toys - a child without conscience. And his behaviour has the validation of greedy yesmen.Would you warn your child to stay away from the local pedophile who just moved in, simply based on reported facts? Yep. Unless you are an idiot. You might teach him politeness, however, I am quite sure a stern warning to steer clear is what every sane person here would do. You'd especially tell him to steer clear if said pedophile was surrounded by an encouraging bunch of worshippers.

    Steer clear of John de Ruiter. That's my opinion.

    Besides Matt, judgements without experience is something we do every moment of every day, simply because one cannot afford to experience everything if one wants to survive. That's elementary kindergarten first lesson of life Matt. Didn't you listen to your mom at all when growing up and she told you stuff? She told you about those things to save you misery and permanent injury. Perhaps you are ungrateful, but I am not. I thank others for their warnings, and I warn others that danger may exist. That's part of life Matt. Unless you are trying to pretend that de Ruiter DIDN'T do the things listed in this entire thread. If so, then by all means, refute them with vigor - you'll look like a fool seeing as de Ruiter has admitted his actions.

    When the cops put out an APB, the other cops don't say, "well, have you actually mmmmmet and haaaad expeeeerience with this Mr. Al Capone??? No they wouldn't. They would at the very least, treat Mr. Al Capone with a seriously reasonable amount of caution and suspicion. Especially when the guy himself has such an ego trip with bragging about his betrayal. He still contends that he never left nor betrayed Joyce. She says he did. I agree with her. Why? Because he admits that he did engage in sexual intercourse. He calls that being a faithful husband. Somehow that doesn't jive with the promise he made to Joyce. Why else? Because I want others to be treated not only as I want to be treated, but also as they would like to be treated as well. Treated with dignity, honesty, loyalty - before it's too late. Not just after the damage is done

    Therein lies the biggest problem with de Ruiter. Here is a man who arrogantly claims that he is TRUTH itself, yet he cannot even take responsibility for his offenses, particularly his infidelity. He still claims that he had sex with the twins, but at the same time claims to have maintained fidelity. That is impossible, and it well illustrates his dangerous moral relativism. Since he has selfish morality, and is willing to make promises that he does not care to keep, one cannot trust him - dare not trust him.

    That record is stained, and it wasn't just stained with deceit towards a perfect stranger with no proven loyalties. No, it was with someone committed to him, who had put in major time - giving in to his outrageous power demands just for love. Someone who trusted him. Someone to whom he SOLD THE IDEA OF TRUST. I can understand his failing as a man. For that, I lump him into the same category as every other jackass cheater, which isn't exactly gonna land him in jail, but it does invalidate him as a channel to the infinitely divine - in my personal opinion because he willfully hurt someone for a physical pleasure that could, arguably have been his anyways had he perhaps been patient and communicative. He didn't and couldn't discipline himself to do that and this too, shows his serious impairment as an ethics/moral leader. Unless you think gurus are above reproach and can rape babies, rob banks, pluck out your eyes, etc. etc. John doesn't know the way. If he did, he wouldn't have done what he did. Period. Next Jesus please...

    Much of my experience with John and his group has been through and with countless friends. Friends known for years, and witnessed through their changes and their frustrations. Each of them getting sucked in by John and his corporation - selling them the false hope that they will find truth in his presence, duping them into believing that by paying for his material, that in it they can mine some strategy or method for attaining success and happiness. And yes, he DOES advertise that he has the answer of truth.

    Over the years, de Ruiterites have brought me their stories, their anger and resentment towards John. I believe in their pain and I know from them and many others that you are dead wrong about John. Shall I dismiss their stories and embrace yours above theirs? Since participating in this thread, I have received hundreds of emails from current and former de Ruiterites, their exes, daughters, sons, husbands, wives. All people that have crossed paths with that moral dimwit and his for profit spritual scam. Will you invalidate and negate their personal testimonials to me? Just to satisfy

    In regards to your bill to OASIS...if you had already paid it, then why mention it? More misleading by not telling the whole truth? Seems a de Ruiterite's grasp of the truth is as common as a dirty penny. Sorry - EX de Ruiterite - no wait, you said you bought more discussions that were good. Are you sure that your entire presence here isn't simply an overcompensation for a hidden buyer's remorse? Are you sure you aren't simply talking up John for the sole purpose of making yourself feel better about the money you've frittered away on buddy's bullshit and just don't want to admit it because it might make you feel stupid? Lots of people do that every day you know... I just find it a little odd that you claim one thing then another and always contradict yourself about John.

    As for revealing something about myself? I love to cook, and have a wonderful singing voice. I enjoy hiking, music, travel, great parties, and engaging conversations. I would brake for Artesians, if I could recognize them, and have an exquisitely large member, over which I have developed a zen mastery which has made my vegan PETA hippy girlfriend absolutely unwilling to leave me despite my penchant for McDonald's? Oh yeah, and for me, it's button, THEN zip. Anything else about me that you would like to know Matt? It's not as if it would be relevant to a discussion of whether or not de Ruiter is a scam or a danger...but if you really want to know... my favorite color is cobalt blue! YAYYY!
    

54. kalilily on 10 Jul 2006

    Fremenwarrior -- It's obvious that there's nothing Matt can say that will satisfy you. He has pretty much explained (perhaps not with the language you prefer, but he has taken great pains to explain how he got to where he is) his perspective. Let him go.

    And, actually, rather than the superficial details that you have offered about yourself, you could have provided some insight into why you feel the way you do about continuing to attack Matt. It just seems out of proportion to his mild defense of his attraction to that flawed man.

    While I agree with your opinion of John DeRuiter, your verbal wrestling with Matt about the issue is way overkill.

    Are you a good, compassionate man, Fremenwarrior? Do you war for just cause or just for sport? Some men just like to keep an argument going for the sake of argument. Are you not mature enough to know that it's futile to argue politics, religion, and the validity of personal feelings? I'll bet your and Matt's enneagrams are totally opposite!! You don't even speak the same language.

55. fremenwarrior on 10 Jul 2006

    Matt's a big boy who can attempt to defend his position on his own Kalilily. None of this has been "war" as you put it. Merely a thorough dissecting of Matt's points. If you don't think that is worthwhile, then shut your blog down. Discussion is often spirited and complex. You may find my style combative, others here have emailed me to thank me for not backing down from this discussion - to thank me for getting it right (as they put it...)

    In addition Kalilily, personal details are NOT relevant to this discussion. A person's arguments are supposed to be weighed on their OWN merit, not any merits perceived through identity. In university, we call that type of fallacy to be "argumentum ad homeneim". I could be a priest, a politician, a freaky princess, a drug abuser, a stone cold sober mummy Theresa type, and it's not supposed to matter. What is supposed to matter is a critical assessment of the actual points we each make. That's how fair minded academics (and even just normal folk) do things... That's why you got to know my favorite color as opposed to say my choice of religion. It's irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant are the actual points of argument. Kalilily, admit it, you just don't like to see two people "fighting", as you perceive it. Well, too bad. You opened up this forum and now you want us all to not ACTIVELY participate with detailed responses? I guess this is a soap box for you, as opposed to a discussion thread. Welcome to Kalilily de Ruiter's new franchise operation...

    Finally, he hasn't taken great pains to tell us "where he is". He has taken great pains to try and convince us that there is something worthwhile in attending John de Ruiter's meetings. My posts have been directly in opposition to that principle. I feel that JDR is extremely harmful to people so I have responded directly to each and every single selling point that Matt has offerred. If you can find fault with any of those points, please kindly illustrate that instead of just telling me that I like to go to "war" as you put it. Your invalidation of my well thought out arguments, simply because you cant stand to see Matt's half baked blabber shown for what it really is should give you pause to consider your own role in this debate. Running into a house to yell fire and then leaving is irresponsible. Kalilily, you even took the opportunity to use this de Ruiter posting at the top to Bush-bash, which normally is a worthwhile endeavour, but hardly relevant to the JDR thread. Should we consider you to be an immature warlike crone simply because you appear to be picking fights? Or should we simply use our creative analytical minds to attempt to understand your point and recognize that discussions sometimes NEED to be heated and thorough? It's not like we are discussing wallpaper.

56. kalilily on 10 Jul 2006

    My dear sir: This is a personal weblog, not a forum, and if you don't know the difference, I suggest that you do a little googling. You have made your point, over and over again, about DeRuiter. If you feel you have a mission to mentor Matt and refine his blather, then please do so through emails to him directly and don't clutter up my server space with your bickering. I reserve the right to delete comments to my weblog. As a blogger, I also can post whatever I please on my blog, including beginning with Bush-bashing and ending with DeRuiter routing. Go and get your own weblog and you can post whatever you please. They are free. Go to www.blogger.com and sign up for one and persue your issues there all you want.

    It's my party and I'll delete if I want to.

    And my original post was about the nature of "truth," not specifically DeRuiter's. You're off topic as well as being a bully.

57. mattwilliams on 10 Jul 2006

    
    "What is truth?"
    Johnny Cash
    
    The old man turned off the radio
    Said, "Where did all of the old songs go
    Kids sure play funny music these days
    They play it in the strangest ways"
    Said, "it looks to me like they've all gone wild
    It was peaceful back when I was a child"
    Well, man, could it be that the girls and boys
    Are trying to be heard above your noise?
    And the lonely voice of youth cries "What is truth?"

    A little boy of three sittin' on the floor
    Looks up and says, "Daddy, what is war?"
    "son, that's when people fight and die"
    The little boy of three says "Daddy, why?"
    A young man of seventeen in Sunday school
    Being taught the golden rule
    And by the time another year has gone around
    It may be his turn to lay his life down
    Can you blame the voice of youth for asking
    "What is truth?"
    
    A young man sittin' on the witness stand
    The man with the book says "Raise your hand"
    "Repeat after me, I solemnly swear"
    The man looked down at his long hair
    And although the young man solemnly swore
    Nobody seems to hear anymore
    And it didn't really matter if the truth was there
    It was the cut of his clothes and the length of his hair
    And the lonely voice of youth cries
    "What is truth?"

    The young girl dancing to the latest beat
    Has found new ways to move her feet
    The young man speaking in the city square
    Is trying to tell somebody that he cares
    Yeah, the ones that you're calling wild
    Are going to be the leaders in a little while
    This old world's wakin' to a new born day
    And I solemnly swear that it'll be their way
    You better help the voice of youth find
    "What is truth"

    The heart of the matter for me in this discussion
    is to share. Sometimes when I reach a place where I cannot speak I find there to be those who have gone before me that have said it beautifully already. A so , this song.

    I am prepared to stop speaking now...I have said what I needed to say. Yes, I am conflicted but not about what I know to be the goodness of human beings and there gentle, awesome potential to let go of their personal stances and opinions. When there is conflict between two people they must speak to one another. If each is prepared to acknowledge their limitations, growth is possible. At this juncture I say do what you think is best.
    

58. kalilily on 10 Jul 2006

    Matt, thank for your that song of Cash's. It pretty much sums up the dilemma with which each individual is faced. Exploring music, art, and literature often opens our minds to help us find our own truths -- moreso than being lectured and criticized. Dialogue also helps if it's a true and honest sharing of personal "truths."

    There's a book I read more than thirty years ago that was a great help to me, and it might be to you, Matt. It's called "If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him" by Sheldon Kopp. I think you would appreciate it.

    You seem to be a gentle soul, Matt, and I suspect that your biggest challenge is to NOT always look to others to tell you what you should be doing.

    I spent many years, on and off, working with a therapist/shaman to uncover my own "truths" and use them to empower myself. I was one of the lucky ones who found a truly moral and gifted healer and teacher. DeRuiter is not such a man, and you seem to be acknowledging that. Sometimes we have to go down the wrong path to find the right one. I wish you well.

59. fremenwarrior on 10 Jul 2006

    But Kalilily, how do you KNOW your Shaman healer is great, and then declare with certainty that John is not? You seem pretty certain. Nice that you feel liberated enough to make statements without backing them up.

    Further you even state that Matt "seem to be acknowledging that" (John's illegitimacy) where I can find zero evidence of that in his comments. In fact it is quite the opposite. Matt has been in here selling quite passionately for de Ruiter. He was, and is still a paying customer of John's scams. You have absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that Matt doesn't buy into John's schtick, and further Kalilily, you have double standards. Your own quack Shaman therapist is seemingly above reproach, but John gets your certain disapproval sight unseen. That's more than just a little pathetic.

    I, personally, think you suffer from "buyer's remorse" just as much as Matt. I'm not doubting that you truly believe your Shaman helped you, but you are projecting that personal success onto your appraisal of John - someone you likely haven't even gone to see. You think I am a bully - well others here have written to tell me that I am the voice of reason, that I am ex-JDR's only real voice here, that I am right and not to back down... I ain't a bully, I'm an intellectual. Maybe you just don't like my bluntness, but if you can find an actual insult in this thread, please post it. I can't find a single nasty thing in this thread - just a lot of me keeping people like Matt (and now you) a little more honest, and a lot less airy-fairy.

    So go ahead, hit that delete button if you are a coward - save us the controversy. Or start engaging both a critical mind and a thick skin and jump into the debate.

    Again, instead of calling me a bully, can you actually point out anything that I have said that is actually wrong? Doubt you can.

    Finally, Matt, you are posting lyrics trying to act as if the song somehow relates to you in this discussion. It doesn't. In fact, it more relates to me and my position. When you demand to know personal details like my identity, you are the like the courtroom refusing to hear the longhaired person swear - merely because of your own inability to separate discussion of facts from dis-establishment of credibility by looking for something to trash in personality. Thanks for putting it up there though. It reminds us not to fall for it.

60. mattwilliams on 10 Jul 2006

    Kalilily,

    I came across that book recently on the internet...have not read it but thankyou for the recommendation.

    They say that truth springs from argument amongst friends...

    The sign of a great human being, for me, is one who can acknowledge the truth of another and kindly hold to that knowing despite the individuals seeming resistance to that in themselves.

    Have you heard that Johnny Cash killed the Buddha?
    I have a song for you! ( I think Sting wrote it but Cash sings it like he knows it)

    Its called "I Hung My Head"

    http://www.risa.co.uk/sla/song.php?songid=19437

    Bye!
    Matt

61. kalilily on 10 Jul 2006

    I agree with your opinion of deRuiter, Mr. Warrior. I admit it's an opinion not formed from direct experience or evidence.

    As far as you comments here, remember that how you say something is usually as important in getting your message across as WHAT you say. If you were a reader of my weblog, you would know that I have a pretty thick skin and I'm quite intelligent.

    You wouldn't happen to be a lawyer, would you? You're certainly not a teacher!! Perhaps you should consider some therapy for your obvious prejudice against spiritual seekers. Johnny Cash certainly was one of those, and like many, he chose the wrong path for him before he found the right one.

    Personally, I'm an agnostic, and, again, if you read through my weblog, you would understand where I'm coming from in relation to shamanism and therapy. My life is a public blogrecord, and that record attests to why I have the opinions that I do. Again, they are opinions as far as the rest of the world is concerned; some are "truths" for me personally. When you have a spare several weeks, read through my writings here at www.kalilily.net and read about me at www.kalilily.net/about.

    I'm not projecting anything onto Matt or trying to convince him of anything. I'm simply establishing some common ground with him. Confrontation works in the court room but not in a classroom, and I consider these conversations a place to learn.

    You ARE a lawyer, aren't you!!!!

62. mattwilliams on 10 Jul 2006

    From myself, I am copper,
    Through you, friend, I am gold;
    From myself I am a stone,
    But through you I am a gem.
    
    Don't treat me as a stranger
    I am your neighbor.
    My house is close to yours.
    I may look different, by my heart is good.
    My inside is shining even if my sayings are obscure.

    There is a Soul inside your Soul.
    Search that Soul.
    There is a jewel in the mountain of body.
    Look for the mine of that jewel.
    Oh, Sufi, passing by,
    Search inside if you can, not outside.

    Oh reason, go away.
    There is no wise one here.
    Even if you become a small hair.
    There is no place for you.
    It is morning now.
    Whatever candle you
    burn Would be shamed in front of sunshine.

    Love asked me last night, with pity,
    "How could you live without Me?"
    "I swear," I said,
    "I am like a fish out of water."
    "It is your fault," he answered.
    "You are the one fleeing from Me.

    Last night I asked an old wise man
    To tell me all the secrets of the universe.
    He murmured slowly in my ear,
    "This cannot be told, but only learned."

    I am a soul who has had
    A hundred thousand bodies.
    But I can't talk about it.
    What can I do?
    I am tongue-tied.
    I have seen thousands
    Of people who were all me.
    But from them I haven't found
    Any like me.

    At the dawn of Eternal Love
    Souls fly out of bodies
    And man reaches the stage of perception
    Where with every breath
    He can see and touch
    Without eyes and without hands.

    How long am I going to tell
    The color and smell of time?
    It must be time to see that Beauty.
    When I look at Him I see myself,
    And when I look at myself, I see Him.

    Come again, please, come again,
    Whover you are.
    Religious, infidel, heretic or pagan.
    Even if you promised a hundred times
    And a hundred times you broke your promise,
    This door is not the door
    Of hopelessness and frustration.
    This door is open for everybody.
    Come, come as you are
    
    You are the water.
    We are the plants.
    You are the King.
    We are the poor.
    You are the one who talks.
    We are the echoes.
    You are the one searching.
    Why don't you come to all of us once?

    I see an eye in every fortune,
    And a fortune sits in every eye.
    Oh, cross-eyed one,
    If you see two in one,
    I only see one in two.

63. kalilily on 10 Jul 2006

    Matt -- I assume you wrote the above poem, since you didn't indicate otherwise. It reminds me a little of Theodore Roethke's poetry. Have you read any of his? I've already told my daughter I'd like her to read his "Fourth Meditation" from his Meditations of an Old Woman at my cremation party.

    Also, I blogged here just now: http://www.kalilily.net/weblog/06/07/10/072557.html

64. mattwilliams on 10 Jul 2006

    Hey Kalilily,

    I came across that poem on the internet today. I didnt write it. Its by Rumi. Heres a link with some writings of his... http://www.khamush.com/

    I have never read Theodore Roethke until now...I just read some of his poems...thanks....I found these quotes of his...I too recognize the similarity between the two writers...simple...and warm

    “A lively understandable spirit Once entertained you. It will come again. Be still. Wait.”

    “Love is not love until love's vulnerable"

    
    I also read your blog post...and your /about...

    
    "It is up to each of us to get to know our shadows and learn how to dance them into a positively channeled personal power. "

    
    “And everything comes to One, As we dance on, dance on, dance on” Theodore Roethke

    
    

    Matt

65. kalilily on 11 Jul 2006

    Yes, I've read some of Rumi before, but I didn't know the poem you posted. Interesting that you quoted from Roethke's "The Lost Son." The person who gave me Roethke's book of poetry inscribed it with that quote.

    Not everyone is comfortable with the metaphoric language of poetry, but I, for one, find it full of wisdom. Good poetry rarely gives you the answers to the questions in your heart; what it does, however, is move you to keep searching. It's possible that that's the effect deRuiter's words have on some people, but I, personally, find, from what I have seen of what he has to say, that his statements are vapidly vague rather than motivatingly metaphoric. It's like the difference between bad poetry and good poetry. The former, on the surface, sounds deep and meaningful, but when you really examine it, its meaning is either shallow or just plain misleading. Good poetry, as any good art, stands up to close scrutiny and sends you away with strong feelings that slowsly ignite a process of clearer thinking. Of course, all of this is only my opinion -- the conclusions I've come to from my own experiences. I've participated in many Creative Arts Therapy sessions, both as a "student" and as a facilitator. I've seen it work with those who have a strong "right brain."

    And yes, I too think that Johnny Cash "killed" the Buddha.

66. fremenwarrior on 11 Jul 2006

    I'm all for diverse forms of therapy, but de Ruiter is hardly an accredited accountable agency that can be held to scrutiny by a board of whatever. The OASIS structure allows him to essentially offer therapy without paperwork, professional conduct rules, ethics guidelines, academic certifications/degrees, etc. Yet people place the same faith and trust in his services - because the marketing portion of his company works hard directly for him, enticing people to place that trust in him as TRUTH ITSELF.
    

67. kalilily on 11 Jul 2006

    Yes! That's exactly the point. Many individuals who gravitate toward him are looking for easy answers to tough questions -- the kind of questions to which talented and legitimate therapists are trained to help them find answers.

68. fremenwarrior on 11 Jul 2006

    Hence why people like Matt anger me in the extreme for their reckless endangerment of other humans through recommending JDR. Hence why Matt and anyone else like him gets zero quarter from me. We simply cannot allow people like him to keep selling the world on de Ruiter.

69. kalilily on 11 Jul 2006

    I understand that. But what Matt needs is encouragement and support to wean himself from his attachment to JDR and find to a base of support that will be more constructive and conducive to helping him find the self-stability he's looking for. He's so attuned to lyrics and poetry that I'll bet he would both enjoy and profit from seeing a therapist who uses such arts in the therapeutic process. Some of us respond deeply to passion -- even the semblance of such. Replacing personal creative passion with the passionate performance artistry of JDR would be a great way for Matt to go.

70. mattwilliams on 11 Jul 2006

    Freemenwarrior and Kalilily,

    There is perhaps no phenomenon which contains so much destructive feeling as "moral indignation," which permits envy or hate to be acted out under the guise of virtue. Eric Fromm

    “There is nothing that simplicity cannot deal with. Simplicity knows its way through. Tender simplicity simply unravels it in a way that is the healing of your self.”

    “You are not supposed to be something higher, you are invited to adore something higher. The lower is then not left behind, it is infused, awakened and transformed.”

    
    “The most exquisite joy is when in absolute stillness, you are being to the core, true. Knowing the absolute and being what you know, without compromise… that is your true nature; it is your only home.”

    
    “Nothing works without honesty and surrender. Honesty opens a true space, surrender secures that space… now true life actually begins.”

    John DeRuiter

    
    

71. fremenwarrior on 11 Jul 2006

    Here again we see the typical JDR mentality in Matt's responses. It seems virtually impossible for Matt to respond in his own words. It seems that ninety percent of Matt's postings are vague quotes cut and pasted from the net... I can see why de Ruiter holds so much power over Matt.

    It's easy to pick up a wee snippet of someone else's words to try and buttress your own when you lack the necessary foundation to well defend your position. But since you want to quote Fromm, I'm game - personally I figure you aint got the slightest idea of what Fromm was really into because he was about as secular and scientific as it gets. He wouldn't have given dildos like JDR the time of day (except maybe to do a thesis discrediting him perhaps!) I think, however, that you should have picked up on Fromm's main principle, namely that "true love" contained the common elements of care, responsibility, respect, and knowledge. It is critical in understanding where Fromm came from. Well John certainly didn't care for Joyce and his family, didn't respect anyone concerned, didn't stay honest to the truth of his committments, and certainly did not wait for Joyce's understanding. I doubt Fromm would have respected de Ruiter. Period. But ok, if you want to use a dead man's words to prop up the man you worship - go ahead.

    
    Since you like quotes, I think this one is appropriate at this time: "Apes read philosophy Otto - they just don't understand it!" - Jamie Lee Curtis in the movie, A Fish Called Wanda.

    I think this may really apply in your situation Matt. Less poetry, more everyday real common sense. I don't think you hang out with enough trucker/farmer types. They wouldn't have much patience for the bullshit you sling and would likely be far more useful as life coaches than any poem you can misinterpret Matt - certainly they'd get you more value than JDR.

    John's quote about tender simplicity is simply a generalization because there are simple things in life, as well as things of great complexity and each should be given its due. John's simple words appeal simply to simple people who ain't got the balls nor strength to tackle the long hard road of complex thinking.

    The next John quote you sling is even dumber. Basically it is a thinly veiled way of saying, "don't bother trying to be great - worship someone you THINK is great when OASIS invites you to do it" Oh yeah, and 5 bux please.

    The next quote regarding stillness, knowing God, and yet being yourself despite knowing the difference between right and wrong is John's personal way of not having to take responsibility for his unethical actions. First off, none of us can know "the absolute". We can think we know - arrogantly, but we don't. Secondly, if we think we know, then we have a responsibility to act ethically, whether we like the ethic or not. And again, John has proven he likes to do things his OWN way, as opposed to the ethical way. Which brings me to his next loser quote: “Nothing works without honesty and surrender. Honesty opens a true space, surrender secures that space… now true life actually begins.”

    Wow. I wish he'd thought of that before screwing around on his wife and family. Maybe if he'd stayed honest and surrendered his lust for power he might have had enough of what a spiritual leader is supposed to have to guide folks ethically. Obviously he knew the difference between right and wrong because he tried to convince Joyce to let him do it. He simply had no personal discipline, no care, no morality and went ahead with his betrayal for his own selfish wants. Good job on picking a great moral leader for yourself Matt. Way to go. Call me when that pedophile Mohammed comes back into town...

    Kalilily, I understand that you want me to be all nice and such to Matt - well I am. It's called tough love. He doesn't need encouragement. He needs the instant wisdom of a proverbial kick in the ass to get him to wake up and stop being a shill for the man.

72. mattwilliams on 11 Jul 2006

    What you call "tough love" is intolerance. And it is cowardly. I will continue to post here and resist this cowardice.

    Using a blindness to see...and knowing full well what you are doing. It is not whole, neither is it constructive or even remotely intelligent. It is an abuse of yourself, and its simply a waste of your true abilities as a human being. To hide behind your "right" to condemn and chastise another for the sake of your own personal safety, your own limited ideas of what is going on, and then to speak of it as "constructive" is simply shameful.

    Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    
    This is not a debate...you cannot debate a person's affections and loyalties. You can condemn them and chastise them, but that is not debating. That is much less than debating. True debating is a courageous act. It is not about exploiting your own contempt for a person's percieved weakness in an effort to overpower them and crush them.

    
    "Tough Love" is what has been used in residential schools, jails, in slavery and against what is real....namely Love itself. Love is not tough. It makes no demands. Love is invioable, though it can be hurt.

    Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    
    Like your name, your whole self is a carefully crafted disguise. Free Men Warrior.....you have much to learn about all three if you believe you are being anything but a bully to yourself first , and to those around you in this forum.

    He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    And yes, like a Mcdonalds eater at a PETA convention, or a racist at a convention for the free right of a man to resist condemnation and speak out against one who practices violence, you will not find anything but disapproval in me for your way in these matters.

    You are not to be excluded. You are welcome to address me at any time. I am waiting for something honest. And I can wait for that. The question is, can you?

73. kalilily on 11 Jul 2006

    You're right. I don't believe "tough love" really works long term. It tends to have too many psychologically buried side effect.

    The problem I have with deRuiter's words is a matter of "so what does all tham mean translated into every day life??" He gives no indication, and his own personal life is certainly no model. It all sounds good, but, again, how does it work in specific situations? That's the issue that each individual has to work out for himself. It's the practical applications of these platitudes that's important, not the platitudes themselves. Many others have said the same thing in different sets of words. It all means nothing unless you explore how to apply them morally and practically. (And that's what a good therapist helps one to do.) It's like Transcendatal Meditation -- there are all these vague words and rituals, but what you actually have to do is sit and be still and breathe steadily and learn how to quiet your mind. It's called the "relaxation response." I works to clear your mind and relax your muscles -- not because of the platitudes but because of the practice. Matt seems to be lacking the personal practice, and he would be wise to find someone qualified to help him learn. What deRuiter preaches isn't necessarily wrong; it's simply useless at the level of just abstract concepts. "Truth" is a very abstract concept and open to as many interpretations as there are people. We each have to decide what it means to us. The Golden Rule is a good guide.

    It's like ballroom dancing. I can watch all the inspiring movies about it, listen to the experts explain how exhilarating it is, how you can achieve the much sports-lauded "zone," how good it makes you feel. But until I go and learn how to do it and then actually do it, it's been just inspiring words of no value to me except to get me jazzed about the concept. But learning how to dance well takes a lot of work and sweat.

    Matt has to find his own way to take the platitudes and apply them to his life in real and physical ways.

    For example:
    -- “The most exquisite joy is when in absolute stillness, you are being to the core, true. Knowing the absolute and being what you know, without compromise… that is your true nature; it is your only home.” -- APPLICATION: LEARN TO MEDITATE USING ANY TECHNIQUE THAT WORKS FOR YOU.

    -- “There is nothing that simplicity cannot deal with. Simplicity knows its way through. Tender simplicity simply unravels it in a way that is the healing of your self.” APPLICATION: DON'T COMPLICATE SITUATIONS BY SECOND GUESSING THE OTHER PERSON. ACT WITH COMPASSION AND LEARN TO BE AWARE OF WHEN YOU'RE LETTING OTHERS MANIPULATE YOU. LIVE BY THE GOLDEN RULE.

    -- “You are not supposed to be something higher, you are invited to adore something higher. The lower is then not left behind, it is infused, awakened and transformed.” APPLICATION: TAKE YOUR FAITH IN SOME HIGHER POWER AND INCORPORATE YOURSELF AND EVERYTHING ON THIS PLANET INTO THAT FAITH, RESPECTING ALL LIVING CREATURES AS CONNECTED SOMEHOW TO YOURSELF. LIVE BY THE GOLDEN RULE.

    As for "moral indignation," that's not the same as adhering to moral principles and recognizing when someone else is not. "Indignation" fuels tough love. Recognition can fuel action based on compassion. Again, the Golden Rule is a good guide.

    OK. I think I'd make a much better cult leader than deRuiter!!! :-)

74. fremenwarrior on 11 Jul 2006

    Matt, I've been waiting for you to be honest since the start.

    You are hurt. I understand that. I know that it's easier for you to lash out and pretend I have some sort of disguise then it is for you to simply respond directly to each of my points regarding de Ruiter and his record. It's human nature. In discussing this subject, I have rightly tried to keep you honest through all your contradictions, pedantic poetry, vague phrasings, and endless quotes that lead nowhere through yet again - more vagueness right o